The following is a
transcript of a conversation (debate) on preterism that my brother,
Danny Green, had with Hank
Hanegraaff and Elliot Miller on The Bible Answer Man
broadcast in 1995:
[BEGINNING OF CONVERSATION]
Hank: …From central Florida listening on WTLN, Danny,
welcome.
Danny: Hey Hank!
Hank: How ya doin'?
Danny: Ah, fair to Midland, I guess. [laughter] First time
I've, uh, talked on a talk show here, so kind of bear with me.
Hank: Ok. I, you know, I have often thought of what it would
be like to call in on a talk show and I always get, I always chicken
out.
Danny: Oh yeah? [laughter]
Hank: Yeah. So I'll appear on my own, but I always chicken
out. You know, this morning I was listening to a secular talk show
and it was a show dealing with Genesis, and the talk show host was
absolutely shredding the Genesis account of creation, and I so
wanted to call up, and, uh, I didn't have much time, and I said,
“Ah, I'll leave that to somebody else," and now I kind of wish I
had.
Danny: Well, you probably would have gotten a bunch of busy
signals anyway, so…
Hank: [laughter] Probably would've.
Danny: [laughter]
Hank: Anyway, so I go through the same thing you do.
Danny: Yeah. …At any rate though… Oh yeah. I called about,
uh, certain teachings in prophecy, one teaching in particular called
“preterism,” the teaching that all prophecy was fulfilled in the
first century, and, um, I was just going to ask you if you ever had
any more information concerning that viewpoint.
Hank: Well we do, uh, and uh, of course, uh, we have talked
about it on The Bible Answer Man broadcast before. There is a
good book that, uh, deals with this particular issue.
Danny: Mm Hm.
Hank: And, uh…
Danny: On this viewpoint?
Hank: Yes. Well, not only on that viewpoint but on the basic
eschatological viewpoints. It's called The Last Days Handbook.
There's also a brand new book out right now. I'm not going to
recommend it yet. I'm only about, uh, oh maybe a third of the way
through, but I am so excited about this new book. I can hardly wait
to talk about it on The Bible Answer Man broadcast. It is one
of those books that I've been looking for for a long time on
eschatology that can really lay out the positions clearly and, uh,
concisely, and in an understandable, simple yet not simplistic
manner and, uh, again, every night before I go to bed I usually
knock off another couple of chapters. Uh, and, um, pretty soon I
want to talk about it because it's one of the, uh, best resources
I've seen recently which deals with the different eschatological
positions including the preterist position.
Danny: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what I am myself, is a
preterist, and that's why I was calling up, and uh, I wanted to hear
all sides, and everything. I'm going to be going to a seminar, or a
prophecy conference up there in New Jersey. It's September 30th.
Elliot: You're going to a, you're a preterist, but you're
going to a prophecy conference.
Danny: Yeah. You know, for preterists mainly.
Elliot: Oh, okay. Now…
Danny: And I just don't…
Elliot: …does this go along with your… Are you, uh, a
postmillennialist? And are you into reconstructionism?
Danny: I'm neither.
Elliot: Neither?
Danny: I believe that all prophecy was all fulfilled in the
first century, A.D. 70, when the Temple was destroyed. And I believe
it was…
Elliot: Okay, but you're not a postmillennialist.
Danny: No. Definitely not. I don't…
Elliot: Do you believe that Jesus will come back in the
future?
Danny: Not this preterist, no. [laughter]
Elliot: Okay, well then we're having a problem here.
Danny: Okay.
Elliot: Because now we're not talking about acceptable
differences, uh, among Christians, you know, with regard to the
timing of the end, but we're now discussing something that has to do
with the Gospel itself…
Danny: Mm hm.
Elliot: …which is that Jesus came and died the first time
with reference to sin so that He might come again in glory the
second time without reference to sin, to set up His Kingdom. That is
the hope of the believer throughout the New Testament.
Hank: And certainly we need to point out quickly that all
preterists would not hold the view that was just given.
Elliot: Yes, that's why I asked the questions I did.
Danny: Well they're not true preterists then, because a
preterist, like a futurist like you are, believes that prophecy, or
almost all prophecy, is yet to be fulfilled. Whereas a preterist
will on the other hand say that all prophecy was fulfilled. And…
Elliot: Now that is not how preterism is normally defined.
Preterism would be saying that…
Danny: Well, postmillennials call themselves preterists and
they will say, “Oh yeah, Jesus came in A.D. 70, BUT….”
Hank: But, hey, just. Danny. Hang on just a second.
Danny: Sure.
Hank: Elliot wanted to alleviate you're ignorance in this
area. Hang on. Let him finish his sentence.
Elliot: Well, I just wanted to state that a preterist is
someone who believes that the events described for example in
Matthew 24 and many of the events described in the book of
Revelation did take place, uh, in the first century, mainly before
A.D. 70. However, uh, in the classic position of preterism, they
still believe that the great hope of the Christian is the Second
Coming of Jesus Christ. Now if you don't, are not looking for the
Second Coming of Jesus Christ, then, uh, you're basically, uh,
taking a position that goes contrary to the, to the core of the
Gospel, which is the believer's blessed hope, the appearing of
Christ to conquer Satan and to establish righteousness on the Earth
and to set up the Kingdom of God. It, it's His coming and His
establishing of the Kingdom that we look forward to. What are you
looking forward to?
Danny: Well, I believe the hope of glory which is talked
about in the Bible, the hope of glory which --I know you futurists
will say that the hope of glory is Christ's coming-- but I…
Hank: Let's not use any labels. Let's just deal with the
issue, because this is a very important issue.
Danny: I know.
Hank: It runs right to the core of our existence. It's not
some tangential issue here.
Danny: What's the hope of glory? That's, that's the bottom
line I'm also trying to bring up.
Elliot: That's what I want to know. What is your hope?
Danny: My hope of glory is Christ in me, and I believe He's
already in me. And He already came, and I received Him, you know,
years ago, you know…
Hank: What do you do with Revelation chapter 22, “Behold I
come quickly. My reward is with Me. And I will give to everyone
according to what he has done.” Jesus Christ did, did come once, and
He is coming again. And not because I say so, but because He says
so.
Danny: Well, if you take it in context, see, in the book of
Daniel, God told Daniel to seal...
Hank: No. I'm, I'm not in Daniel right now. I'm in
Revelation.
Danny: I know. I am.
Hank: Let's deal with Revelation. Then we'll go to Daniel.
Danny: I know, but you see that's it. I'm trying to make a
point about Revelation.
Hank: Okay.
Danny: Just be patient with me please.
Hank: Okay.
Danny: Okay, in Daniel, God told, you know, Daniel the
prophet to seal up the prophecies because the time was not at hand.
He was going to sleep yet. Whereas you look in Revelation, God told
John, “Do not seal up the prophecies,” you know, because the time is
at hand. This is 500 years between Daniel and Christ. Now that's a
long ways off, according to God, but here it is 2,000 years later
after John, He says this is close at hand? To me this is a little
bit inconsistent. I think God was talking to those when He said He
was coming quickly, to those in that first century. Because I think
we're reading someone else's mail primarily, when we're reading
Revelation.
[……….silence……….]
Hank: So, you think …that Jesus Christ is not going to return
…the second time.
Danny: Well, He's in us. Why would we need Him in a physical,
you know, manifestation of God?
Elliot: Okay so, we agree with you that He is in people who
have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Danny: That's our hope of glory.
Elliot: Christ is in us. That is the first fruit, Scripture
tells us, or it is the earnest, it is the down payment of the future
glory, okay, but the reality is that within ourselves individually,
as well as within the world collectively, sin is still very much
present. God is not finished yet. Jesus came into the world
ultimately to do away with sin, and if you think that you're present
condition is the hope of glory, in other words that that hope is now
fully realized, then you're sadly mistaken, because God is not going
to be finished until sin is completely eliminated, and that will not
happen until the resurrection of the body. Do you have any hope
beyond death?
Danny: Well, let me bring up my proof text on this. Okay, in
the book of Colossians, I think it's 1:23 [1:27], it says, “the hope
of glory, that is Christ in you.” Now I think they were looking
forward to that hope of glory, that is, the day that, that God,
Christ would be fully established within them. Now once that
physical temple was destroyed, once it was destroyed, the spiritual
Temple was fully established. Therefore, God was manifested in them
in His fullness.
Hank: Okay. Do you have a Bible with you.
Danny: Yes, I do.
Hank: Okay. Look at Revelation chapter 21.
Danny: Okay.
Hank: John sees a new heaven and a new earth.
Danny: Uh huh.
Hank: The first heaven and first earth pass away. There is no
longer any sea. He sees the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming
down out of Heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed
for her husband. He hears a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now
the dwelling of God is with men. And He....
Danny: Exactly.
Hank: …will live with them.”
Danny: Christ is living with us. Jesus told them, “Behold,
something better than the temple is here.”
Hank: No, no. He will live with them. They will be His
people. God Himself will be with them, and be their God.
Danny: He is our God.
Hank: And then, and, and then He says, He's going to wipe
every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning,
crying or pain, “for the old order of things has passed away.”
Danny: The old order. The old Jewish covenant.
Hank: No, no, no. The old order of things is…
Danny: The old covenant.
Hank: …the cursed creation in which we live today, which is
riddled by death, sickness and sin. That old order will pass away…
Danny: Spiritual death.
Hank: …and everything will become new.
Danny: Spiritual death.
Hank: No, no. [laughter] No. Even physically death, physical
death, and, and, and, and as a matter of fact, the hope of the
believer is the physical resurrection, that as He…
Elliot: The blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our great
God and Savior Jesus Christ, uh, in Phillipians chapter 3, verses 20
and 21, Paul says, “Our citizenship is in Heaven from which also we
eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will transform
the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His
glory by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all
things to Himself.” You see, it's the resurrection of Christ from
the dead, it is the culmination of His purpose for coming, and the
purpose of His resurrecting from the dead is so that we too might
resurrect from the dead, or if we're still alive at His coming, be
transformed so that we all might be conformed to the glory of His
immortal body and be freed from the very presence of sin. That is
the blessed hope of the believer. Christ in you is the first fruits.
It is the beginning. Uh, it is the down payment. It gives us a hope
of a future glory, but it isn't the fulfillment of those very
things.
Danny: Yeah, well I know that the last chapter of Revelation,
it does talk about the City of God after it was established. It says
outside the City are the dogs, the immoral people, the idolaters,
and homosexuals and all them, and I think it is making it clear that
sin was not going to be wiped out. It's going to be still around,
but here the City of God is on Earth, sin does not dwell in the City
of God because the Holy Spirit within us sanctifies us.
Hank: Well actually there's going to be a separation…
Danny: That is a separation.
Hank: …and in the holy City New Jerusalem, it says nothing
impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does...
Danny: Exactly.
Hank: …what is shameful or deceitful.
Danny: And outside are the dogs, the immoral people, and so
forth. That's talking about Jersualem being on Earth.
Elliot: "Outside" is speaking with reference to the Lake of
Fire, because we're clearly told in Revelation chapter twenty that
everyone whose name was not written in the book of life is cast into
the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet and Satan
are. So we're told elsewhere in Revelation where “outside” is, and
it's not just on the Earth with people going on with business as
usual.
Danny: Well isn't the New Jerusalem here on Earth already?
Elliot: No it's not. It's something…
Danny: The Kingdom of God isn't here already?
Elliot: No. It's clearly in the future.
Danny: Well, in the book of Galatians, Paul made it very
clear that the New Jerusalem was on its way down. Very clear. The
mother above. I think it's a spiritual Jerusalem, not a physical,
literal streets of gold, you know.
Hank: You, you, you seem to have sort of an esoteric
explanation for every verse, but what do you do with First
Thessalonians chapter four, where, uh, you read, “Brother, we don't
want you to be ignorant.”
Danny: Mm hm.
Hank: “According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we
who are still alive…”
Danny: Will be caught up.
Hank: “…who are left to the coming of the Lord will certainly
not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will
come down from Heaven with a loud command and with the voice of the
Arch Angel.”
Danny: Well, I know the Greek there, uh, the Greek word is
not saying, “caught up.” It's actually being “translated.”
Hank: Are you a Greek scholar?
Danny: I have studied Greek here, and I'm not a scholar. No
sir.
Hank: Okay, well maybe we ought to just leave the Greek alone
then.
Danny: Okay, but I have studied that portion of the chapter
with friends of mine who were very helpful, and the word actually
should not be the word “caught up.” Actually it should be
“translated”…
Hank: Well that's not even the issue…
Danny: Or “taken.”
Hank: …at hand.
Danny: Yeah.
Hank: It says that the Lord Himself will come down from
Heaven with a loud trump.
Danny: You… Yeah…
Hank: And, and what do you do with this text in Acts that
says that the Lord Jesus Who had been taken from you into Heaven
will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into Heaven?
What do you do with that?
Danny: Well, an angel told them that, well if you read back,
it said that when He, as He was going up a cloud received Him out of
His sight, out of their sight I mean. And I believe that it said
Jesus, like Jesus told Pilate [Caiaphas], you know, it says, you
know, you know, you will see the Son of Man come in the clouds of
glory. He told Pilate [Caiaphas] that Himself, and I think Jesus did
come in the cloud, the same cloud of glory that shrouded Him…
Hank: Well wait a minute. You're not answering the question.
Danny: I am. You know, Jesus did come in the clouds of
glory.
Hank: But, but, but wait a minute. Here you have Jesus
Christ…
Danny: Mm hm.
Hank: …In Acts chapter one…
Danny: Mm hm.
Hank: …Okay? And He tells His disciples, it's not for you to
know the times or the dates the Father has set by His own authority,
but you will receive power. When the Holy Spirit comes on you. You
will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in Judea, all Samaria and to the
ends of the earth.” Speaking to the apostles. After this, He was
taken up before their very eyes and a cloud hid them, hid Him from
their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as He was
going, and suddenly two men dressed in white, two angels stood
beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “Why do you stand here
looking up at the sky? This same Jesus Who has been taken from you
into Heaven will come back.” So He's taken up into Heaven. Right?
Danny: Mm hm.
Hank: And He's going to come back in the same way you have
seen Him go into Heaven. And if you read Scripture in context, you
know that there is a time-period between His first ascension into
Heaven and when He returns again.
Danny: Mm hm. That forty year period between His ascension
and the Parousia or His Coming.
Hank: The forty year period between His ascension and His
coming?
Danny: But I believe that that is significant though, in like
in, uh, Revelation chapter twenty, because, you know, I think it's
talking about between the Cross and…
Hank: Hey Danny, have you made up your mind and you're not
going to be confused by the facts?
Danny: Ah, I've never been on this program before, so
[laughter] …my mind does wander a little…
Elliot: Danny, we're concerned about this because, like I
said earlier, this is not just a peripheral area of difference where
good Christians can disagree. This is really striking right at the
core of the Gospel hope. In fact the Apostle John warns in Second
John, or, yeah, in his second epistle, in verse seven, “Many
deceivers have gone out into the world who do not acknowledge Jesus
Christ as coming in the flesh.”
Danny: Mm Hm.
Elliot: Okay. This is not just speaking of in the past tense…
Danny: I believe He came in the flesh.
Elliot: …but it's speaking both of His first and second
coming. Christ is coming physically even as He departed. It is God's
intention to do away with sin, and that is our hope. It is God's
intention to do away with death, and that is our hope. Things are
not going to continue in the present state forever with the Church
or, or Heaven only being a spiritual reality in the midst of a
sinful world that denies God.
Danny: Yeah....
Elliot: You see, the purpose of the Cross was to make it
possible for the Second Coming, for Christ to come without reference
to sin because He dealt with it on the Cross, and He can eliminate
sin and the devil from the world, and if you're hoping for something
less than that, your hope is hollow. You're in the same position
that Paul, the Apostle Paul warns about in Romans chapter fifteen
that, uh, we among all, are, are, are the most, uh, hopeless of all
men if Christ has not risen from the dead, because why? Because then
we won't be resurrected from the dead.
Hank: And we're still dead in our sins.
Elliot: Yeah. If, if Christ…
Danny: We're still dead in our sins?
Elliot: Well…
Hank: That's what he says. He says that you're among all men
most miserable because you're still dead in your sins. If Christ
does not, if Christ has not been raised from the dead then you might
as well…
Danny: Well of course He's raised from the dead.
Hank: …eat, drink and be merry.
Elliot: Okay but here's the point, Danny. You're not getting
the logical relationship, and the biblical relationship between the
fact that A: He was risen from the dead. B: He's coming back
physically. Why would He be resurrected from the dead physically if
He was not going to continue on in a physical existence? And if He's
continuing on in a physical existence, it's for our sake. It's not
for His own sake. It's, it's for the sake of the earth and the world
that He would redeem it and that He would rule over it. You see…
Danny: Well, the Bible does say flesh and blood will not
inherit the Kingdom of God. It would stand to reason Christ rose
from the dead for the purpose, as a sign to those, that He conquered
death, for our salvation. But I know the Bible does make reference
to Jesus after His ascension as Him being in the spirit, you know,
like, I think in the book of Hebrews it refers to Him as, “in the
days of His flesh.” And also “the Spirit of Jesus” was mentioned in
the book of Acts, in Acts sixteen I believe it is. Jesus is now back
in His original form. God is a spirit, like Jesus said.
Hank: No, no, no, no, no. He is forever Theo-Anthropos, the
God-Man. He has taken on an additional nature. He's not, uh…
Elliot: Even as Paul says in First Timothy chapter two verse
five, “There is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ
Jesus.” He is still a Man even now as He mediates, uh, on our behalf
in Heaven. And He will come back in that same form, you see. And I
want to get back to the point in, in, it's actually First
Corinthians fifteen. I said Romans earlier. In First Corinthians
fifteen, Paul makes the point that, uh, if Christ hasn't risen from
the dead, then our hope is in vain because that means we will not be
raised from the dead, and you may acknowledge the resurrection of
Christ, but if you don't see the logical connection between that and
our resurrection from the dead, then your hope is in vain as well
because we are the most miserable of men if indeed we are not
looking for the glorious resurrection in which the sin-nature will
be rooted out and we'll be conformed into the glorious image of His
resurrected body.
Danny: Well, the thing is, if I was to die and go to Heaven
right now and then say next year, God –you know, assuming futurism
is true—but God said, “Okay, you're going to go back into your
physical body and live on Earth again,” well obviously, Heaven must
not be that great of a place to go up to after all, say, “Yeah! I'm
going back to Earth!”
Hank: Hey, hey, hey Danny, I'm going to have to cut you off.
You know why? Because you don't want to be confused by the facts.
We've given you too many facts to consider. You're not considering
them. Rather that you are so, uh, you, you, you're just continuing
with the rhetoric. Here's what you need to do: If you're ever
interested in looking at this with an open mind, we're happy to help
you out, happy to give you all the details that are necessary to
help you in this regard. If not, God bless you, uh, and, uh, hope
some day someone will get through to you because as we've said
several times, this is not a peripheral issue. It is an essential
issue. ...What we need to realize as Christians, you can't talk
anyone like Danny into the Kingdom. You can't talk them into
believing in the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The best
you can do is be equipped so as God opens someone's heart so that
they will listen, you're ready, prepared to given an answer, a
reason for the hope that lies within, and with gentleness and with
respect. Wanna go to Steve in Illinois listening on WYLL. Steve,
welcome.
[END OF CONVERSATION]
UPDATE: In the November 5th, 2004 edition of The Dallas Morning
News, Hank Hanegraaff was quoted as saying:
"John ...was writing about the times he was living in, using
symbolism from the Old Testament prophets to describe conditions
in the first century. All the major elements of the Book of
Revelation – Tribulation, Armageddon, Rapture – took place
at that time." (Emphasis added.)
Then on November 18th, on The Bible Answer Man broadcast,
Hank Hanegraaff responded to the article:
"The editor [of The Dallas Morning News] ...confabulated some
of my statements. ...I did not make this statement [concerning the
rapture]."
